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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The problem with the “harmful to life” definition for evil is it
removes intent or intelligence. For instance an asteroid strike is harmful to
life but is not evil. I don’t believe you can have evil without there being intelligence
involved. Wikipedia has an interesting definition of evil here: <a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil</a>
the one constant appears to be that a decision of some type is involved. Harm
to life does not appear to be a constant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I too considered the idea of whether torture works or not. It
depends on the goal but given torture clearly can produce false confessions, and
as you noted, motivate a populace to revolt its effectiveness as a tool is less
than ideal. But there are a lot of tools that aren’t effective, the Popeil
Pocket Fisherman comes to mind (though, about the 4<sup>th</sup> time I saw
that ad I was convinced my brain cells were dripping out of my ears). But I
doubt we would consider it evil. On a tool though, the question is can a tool
be evil? For instance if I developed a Rape Tool, accepting Rape as evil,
would the tool be evil or would I be evil for having developed it or would the
person using it be evil? Is this even an “or’ question?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If “evil’ requires a decision to be made than a tool, be it
torture or any other tool, isn’t evil any more than an asteroid is evil. The
people that create it may be and those that use it are more likely to be just
as those that might choose to use an asteroid as a weapon would likely be
considered evil. I say “may” on the creation side because the atom bomb’s
intent was to save lives and those that created (the actual designers) it did
not use it, some clearly regretted the creation suggesting they, at least, may
not have been evil. Even those that used the tool may or may not have been considered
evil based on which side of the ocean you were born on. But the existence of
the tool has probably prevented a 4<sup>th</sup> world war which would suggest
the tool itself isn’t evil and it is the decision and how you use it coupled
which side of it you are on that would categorize it as such. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>So I change my initial position. I’ll argue torture is not
evil, the use of torture is evil and I agree it is also not only largely ineffective
it is likely counterproductive as well. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Rob Enderle<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Enderle Group<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Work: 408 272-8560<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Cell: 408 832-6326<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>FAX: 408 904-5274<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>www.enderlegroup.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> debate-bounces@whitestar.linuxbox.org
[mailto:debate-bounces@whitestar.linuxbox.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alan Light<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 01, 2009 11:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> debate@whitestar.linuxbox.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [debate] is torture good or bad?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Rob Enderle
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>"I think, to address this, we must first define evil."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>Personally, I define evil as anything that is harmful to life.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>Of course, that still leaves much open to interpretation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>"If you watch 24, Jack the hero, often uses torture to save
the country or the world. Consensus would appear to be that he is heroic,
and the folks who argue he shouldn’t be allowed to torture (though this seems
to be changing this season a bit) are portrayed as naïve or worse."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>Yes, and that is a television show. I suppose we should also
rely on on intelligent TransAms and Superheroes to fight crime.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>"I would argue torture therefore is a tool and that it
depends on whether the tool is used against you or violates something you
believe that defines the related act as “evil” if there are enough that believe
like you then the consensus will be whether, for this specific use or uses, it
is evil or not."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>Certainly you can establish a consensus that an evil act is not
evil. That is quite common, even when the evil is ultimately to the
detriment of those carrying it out and those supporting them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>"I would also argue that it may rarely be absolute because
if someone you trust and believe in were to use it you are likely to define the
use and the tool by the person and defend it suggesting in that use it wouldn’t
be evil."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>This is one reason why judges are expected to recuse themselves
from cases in which they or someone they are close to is personally involved -
relationships of trust do not necessarily make for good decisions, even if one
intends to be fair.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>"Now personally, I do view torture as evil because I
believe it encourages abusive behavior and like any form of absolute power will
corrupt the person using it."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>I agree with you on this, but there is also a very good reason to
believe that torture doesn't work and is counterproductive - especially that it
produces blowback.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>See this article for example: <a
href="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/torture-it-probably-killed-more-americans-than-911-1674396.html">http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/torture-it-probably-killed-more-americans-than-911-1674396.html</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>According to Major "Matthew Alexander", an American
interrogator in Iraq, the stories of abuse and torture at Abu Ghraib prison
were the primary motivator that lead foreign fighters to volunteer as suicide
bombers in Iraq. The concept shouldn't be too difficult for Americans to
understand - the American Revolution was won in large part due to reactions to
British atrocities, most notably the policy of burning homes and what was known
at the time as the Waxhaw Massacre. Blowback from the latter was soon
evident when the "over mountain men", or the Tennessee Volunteers, reacted
to the news with a battle/massacre of their own at Kings Mountain, and
continued until at least 1815, when Andrew Jackson - who witnessed the results
and was greatly assisted in establishing his career by one of the few survivors
- repaid that debt again at New Orleans.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>Bloody Tarleton was considered to be Cornwallis's greatest asset -
and perhaps no one was more responsible than Tarleton for American
independence. History should certainly make us reconsider the usefulness
of torture and atrocities. It may frighten the enemy, but
only to harden their resolve.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>As Major Alexander says, "People will only tell you the
minimum to make the pain stop. They might tell you the location of a
house used by insurgents but not that it is booby-trapped."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>Alan</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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